freenode/lisp - IRC Chatlog

12:02:09 no-defun-allowed Goodnight everyone!

12:08:11 pfdietz Woo, a segfault in clisp. Is that still being maintained?

12:09:16 Shinmera yes, but slowly

12:09:26 Shinmera mailing list still gets responses at least

12:14:30 jackdaniel pfdietz: do you have version from git or the latest release?

12:14:35 jackdaniel the latter is quite dated

12:15:13 pfdietz Welcome to GNU CLISP 2.49.60+ (2017-06-25) <http://clisp.org/>

12:15:36 pfdietz So, latest release?

12:15:59 pfdietz Or whatever ubuntu 18.04 installs.

12:16:48 pfdietz I'll build from git before I report anything.

12:36:03 pfdietz Where is the "official" git repo for clisp?

12:37:36 jackdaniel I believe this is it: https://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/clisp/ci/tip/tree/

12:38:19 pfdietz https://gitlab.com/gnu-clisp/clisp

14:28:06 dale_ ** NICK dale

14:37:58 shka_ hello

14:39:24 warweasle hi

14:53:37 Achylles how do I get the motivation to learn lisp. I have tried about 2 or 3 times, but then I loose motivation. Learning how to program alone is really hard...

14:54:05 Josh_2 First language?

14:54:32 jackdaniel Achylles: most rewarding way to learn a language is trying to contribute to open source projects along a way

14:55:01 jackdaniel there are many easy tasks out there, solving them impove your language knowledge and lets you move to more ambitious tasks

14:55:15 jackdaniel *and* you have a motivation to learn, how to solve such task

14:56:14 Achylles I have read books on Python, C, C++, (some java, but hate this), prolog, ruby, scala, bashscript and others. I am not a programmer, but I think I have the theory in my mind: variables, constants, strings, functions, etc...

14:56:48 dlowe maybe you don't like programming?

14:56:50 jackdaniel contributing to foss projects is all about practice. just jump in

14:57:13 schweers Achylles: my remark is slightly off-topic, because it’s about elisp, not Common Lisp, but ... Emacs actually did it for me. It enables you to solve very small problems, which are still rewarding.

14:57:56 beach Achylles: As it turns out, programming is only slightly about getting the logic right, and mostly about communicating your intent to other people reading the code.

14:58:01 Achylles Sorry, I thought the channel was about lisp

14:58:11 beach Achylles: About Common Lisp.

14:58:14 Josh_2 ^

14:58:19 Achylles Anyways, I also try to learn it in emacs...

14:59:26 beach Achylles: I am with dlowe. Perhaps that kind of activity is not something you would like to do.

14:59:53 Achylles jackdaniel, links to foss projects?

15:00:13 Achylles beach, I am sure I like it, but the point for me is loneliness

15:00:31 beach Achylles: Then you need to hang out here more.

15:00:38 beach Achylles: And go to ELS once a year.

15:00:50 Josh_2 does text really cure loneliness?

15:00:57 Josh_2 bit offtopic

15:00:59 Achylles I have learned a lot by myself. I would say most computing stuff...

15:01:15 jackdaniel Achylles: there is relatively easy task for log4cl: https://github.com/sharplispers/log4cl/issues/26

15:01:33 jackdaniel you may check out other sharplispers projects, all are desperate for contributors ;-)

15:01:38 Achylles Josh_2, ok I will be quiet if it is off-topic. Thx anyway...

15:01:39 beach Achylles: That doesn't ring true to me. Given that programming is about communication, you have very likely missed the most important aspect of it.

15:02:04 Josh_2 wat no you are not off-topic

15:02:07 Josh_2 I was being off-topic

15:02:16 beach Achylles: I suggest you expose your code here or on #clschool for people to comment on.

15:02:39 beach Achylles: Then you will start learning the communication and maintenance aspect of programming.

15:03:21 Achylles beach, thx. I did not know about that channel :)

15:07:54 scymtym jackdaniel: i'm not sure i agree regarding sharplispers projects. in my opinion, what they could use more of are experienced maintainers focusing on a single or at most a few projects - not more contributors if that means more pull requests

15:11:58 jackdaniel still using semaphores seems like an easy task for gaining experience

15:12:20 jackdaniel maybe word "desperate" was inadequate

15:15:20 beach scymtym: How do you pronounce your nick?

15:16:13 scymtym beach: i don't. i spell it out

15:16:24 Josh_2 simtim

15:16:34 Josh_2 that's what my head says

15:16:58 beach scymtym: I see. I wanted to know whether to pronounce the `c'.

15:19:06 scymtym beach: i wouldn't know, i never put any thought into that question. it's just a word that randomly came up in my mind around 20 years ago. it has good uniqueness so i stuck with it

15:44:32 shka_ i have data structure releated question

15:44:43 shka_ is it ok to ask here or should i move to the lispcafe?

15:53:20 Bike it might be alright

15:55:09 shka_ ok

15:55:24 shka_ i want to make sparse vector

15:55:52 shka_ that is: one that can handle large portion of it's content being null

15:56:40 shka_ my idea is to basicly take rrb type vector structure, and install bitmask at each node to store information about emptyness of subtree

15:56:48 shka_ how does it sound?

16:01:52 Bike i'd just use a hash table.s impler, you know

16:02:00 Bike could write out the api and then compare performance between them

16:15:16 shka_ Bike: that is actually decent idea, but I would also keep it immutable

16:15:57 shka_ i need this because it makes error safety far easier

16:16:20 shka_ namely i want it to implement data frame

16:17:15 shka_ plenty of data sets has HUGE chunks of NULL cells

16:17:26 shka_ ... but i actually already have immutable hash table

16:17:28 shka_ hmmm

16:17:34 shka_ i should think about it

16:29:02 cage_ jackdaniel, please can you give some more explanation about the issue on log4cl? I mean, only revert changes on watcher.lisp is needed?

16:31:31 Blackbeard I could do stumpwm::cancel-timer

16:31:59 Blackbeard but I don't know what is the name of it to kill it

16:35:01 jackdaniel cage_: not exactly (though close). In the meantime bordeaux-threads gained semaphore implementation. so it would be reverting to using semaphores, but semaphores provided by bt (not by bt-semaphore)

16:35:33 jackdaniel after that testing on sbcl, ccl and ecl should follow

16:39:31 cage_ i have changed all "bt-sem:" to "bt:" and removed all the #(+|-)ecl reader macros, i have tested only on sbcl

16:39:39 cage_ #<test-run: 88 tests, 774 assertions, 0 failures in 1.03 sec>

16:39:59 cage_ no chache i can test on other cl implementation soon :(

16:40:18 jackdaniel then make a pull request and maybe someone will pick it from there

16:41:34 cage_ ok, i have acted like an awk program, though :)

16:42:00 jackdaniel I've warned that it will be the easy one ;-)

16:42:45 cage_ that's ok if i made the right thing :)

16:43:16 pjb shka_: you could have a look at Numenta HTM and their Sparse Distributed Representation. They have ways to compact them.

16:43:29 pjb shka_: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8-ttzWLgXZOGuhUyrPlUuA

16:43:46 shka_ pjb: this sounds interesting

16:43:54 shka_ never heared about this before

16:45:41 shka_ pjb: it does not sound like i want it, but it seems to be cool in it's own rights!

16:46:02 pjb Yes.

16:46:18 pjb Depends on what you need the sparse vector for.

16:46:39 pjb Oh, and SDR are vectors of bits actually, so…

16:47:00 shka_ well, this sounds like something that can be used as neural network input

16:47:04 shka_ but anyway

16:47:48 shka_ i simply want R style data frame, i want to have batch operations to modify it, and i don't want to wreck it when a condition is signalled

16:48:05 Bike i've only worked with sparse tensors in matlab, and there i think it's just a linked list

16:48:17 shka_ so instread i want to perform graceful rollback

16:48:26 shka_ Bike: i think that those are CSRs

16:48:58 shka_ anyway, i think that masked rrb vector should work in this context fine

16:49:23 shka_ at least on paper it looks like efficient approach

16:49:40 shka_ i will read about SDR though

16:57:23 shka_ SDR sounds like something akin to datasketches

16:58:06 oni-on-ion shka_: i heard a lot of R peeps using dataframes have migrated to julia

16:58:27 shka_ no wonder

16:58:30 shka_ ;-)

16:58:39 shka_ but i like CL

17:02:36 oni-on-ion i love CL too. but ... this new girl ... >_<

17:03:49 pfdietz That meme

17:04:12 shka_ well, some moved to python

17:04:45 shka_ anyway i hate python, R is limiting and julia is too young

17:04:52 shka_ CL rocks

17:07:41 aeth I guess people who chase the trendiest langauges usually switch every 5 years or so. (Or they're replaced by people who do.)

17:11:31 aeth Compile-to-JS is the worst for this. Remember CoffeeScript? Only 6 years or so past peak hype and now "no one" uses it. If you're writing something that takes years to write, you'd have an unpopular language by the time you finished if you picked compile-to-JS.

17:12:34 oni-on-ion julia isnt too young =) its about 10 years old now. and its 1.0 - lots of happy python/matlab/R users gone to it

17:12:39 oni-on-ion and *awesome* libraries.

17:13:06 shka_ aeth: remember dart? :D

17:13:14 oni-on-ion hey i seen a lisp-in-dart yesterday

17:13:18 shka_ oni-on-ion: well, still not lisp is enough

17:13:23 aeth shka_: Almost mentioned it too, but I didn't want to turn this channel into a language graveyard. :-)

17:13:26 oni-on-ion https://github.com/nukata/lisp-in-dart/blob/master/IMPLEMENTATION-NOTES.md

17:13:41 aeth oni-on-ion: first time I've seen Dart mentioned in like 2-3 years, and even then it was unpopular

17:13:52 aeth s/even then/even back then/

17:13:56 oni-on-ion shka_: what do you mean? people telling me julia is lisp but m-expression

17:15:05 pjb oni-on-ion: they are missing the s-exps.

17:15:06 oni-on-ion it was google tho eh?

17:15:27 oni-on-ion also um. i learned yesterday that Google, is using, Swift, for Tensorflow. ?!?

17:15:42 oni-on-ion pjb: m-exps.

17:15:58 aeth oni-on-ion: I'm not sure language creation time matters with this, though. If Common Lisp became the #4 most popular language tomorrow, the clock would be ticking, and in 5 years it'd have no more than 1/3 the users, probably. Because the people who make a language very popular move around unless they have no choice (e.g. JS, C, Java, etc.)

17:16:12 pjb oni-on-ion: they are here: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/index.html

17:16:39 oni-on-ion its amazing to see julia is actually super performant without going through any low level hoops. those guys have really nailed the low level and high level thing; also david a. moon is contributing to it (the lisp guy.)

17:16:40 aeth oni-on-ion: In a sense, CL already had a few hype phases, and we're just the leftovers from that, with a few people added every now and then from reading the old literature from that hype phase.

17:17:45 pjb aeth: it's quite different. CL was standardized in the heart of the AI winter. That calmed quite an amount of hype.

17:18:15 pjb aeth: then, it was at a time when getting a computer able to run it would cost an arm, of a year of salary…

17:18:25 oni-on-ion aeth: creation time?? oh, i was answering someone saying julia is still too young. but about CL, its still tied to an image, so nope

17:19:00 pjb aeth: imagine, you create Python, and to run it, you have to buy a $100,000 computer.

17:19:08 oni-on-ion aeth: also true about the hype. however i do see many new articles as well

17:19:13 pjb whatever the hype, the popularity wouldn't meet it.

17:19:27 oni-on-ion pjb: wasn't prolog sort of sibling with lisp? but over in europe/asia ?

17:19:54 pjb Now, of course, I exagerate a little, because MacLisp ran on Macintosh 512 or SE. But it was better to have maxed out the RAM (which costed the other arm).

17:20:41 pjb oni-on-ion: prolog was invented in Marseilles in France. It's very different, it was a new kind of programming language: purely declarative.

17:20:55 aeth pjb: I thought CL was standardized *after* its peak? At least the 1994 standard.

17:21:14 pjb aeth: the AI winter was long. :-)

17:22:20 aeth pjb: At least AI is perfectly fine now and not overpromising.

17:22:30 pjb LOL

17:23:00 oni-on-ion prolog is french?!?!? =D i always wanted to make a chart or graph showing all the country/language of origin for proglangs.

17:24:37 russellw so do you count Ada as American or French?

17:24:45 aeth If prolog is french then how come it's not prologue?

17:26:08 oni-on-ion aeth =) the first link in google is a dictionary entry for exactly that

17:26:16 pjb Start with http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Programming_Languages and use google… Or write a lisp program to do it.

17:26:18 oni-on-ion Ocaml and Bigloo are done at INRIA, is that french ?

17:26:30 pjb aeth: AI is perfectly fine now, and not overprimising: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=list+of+programming+languages+sorted+by+their+author+nationality

17:26:35 pjb oni-on-ion: yes.

17:26:41 oni-on-ion true, pjb . not sure where i'd collect the data, i think by hand is the only way there

17:26:52 pjb VLisp and LeLisp was French too. As is Ada.

17:27:02 oni-on-ion Ada -> C or was that ALGOL ?

17:27:07 pfdietz Coq

17:27:07 pjb Algol.

17:27:19 oni-on-ion kk. bit dyslexic

17:28:03 pfdietz The winning proposal to DOD for Ada came from France...?

17:28:18 oni-on-ion i had this wierd idea to correlate mother tongues (french mostly for me) with proglangs. because i have major digital identity crisis =P

17:28:39 russellw yep, it was written by a Frenchman. 'Author nationality' is a more precise term

17:29:34 pjb pfdietz: yep.

17:29:55 pjb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Ichbiah

17:30:36 Inline alors, va't'on!

17:30:44 Inline huehuehue

17:30:58 pjb Well he worked at the French company CII Honeywell Bull so Ada was also financed by a French company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupe_Bull

17:31:45 oni-on-ion lisp was funded by military mostly ?

17:32:41 pjb Not really: Artificial intelligence Project---RLE and MIT Computation Center

17:32:51 pjb https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.html

17:33:24 pfdietz Still used by the military, too. http://www.2is-inc.com/

17:34:27 Inline everything is

17:35:03 oni-on-ion BRL-CAD

17:46:03 jackdaniel c